I did this last year for the Repaneled blog while it was still being updated. For some reason today I wanted to mess around with it a bit. I made some minor tweaks here and there but mostly I made some changes to the back ground color which I was never quite satisfied with when I first drew this. I also added the image of Kate and a tree which I didn't have the first time around. This scene is from Incredible Hulk #296 (Buscema/Mantlo). At the top of the right hand column you can find a link to the original.
Moving on to another issue of The Incredible HULK that Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema worked on. I've blogged a little bit before about issue 286 back in September last year and how it was loosely based on an old Out Limits episode written by Harlan Ellison called "Soldier". But what I didn't know at the time was that this issue turned into something of a controversy. Please read this short article it shouldn't take you longer then 2 or 3 minutes to get through
http://www.sequentialellison.com/bibliography/?p=49
The Outer Limits episode can be found on Youtube easily enough just as a full synopsis on issue #286 can be found on the Marvel wikia site. According to jim shooter the fall out from this issue was the result of an act of plagiarism on the part of Mantlo. But I've read the issue and seen the episode and for me the issue always came off as more of a tribute to Ellison's work as opposed to a blatant rip off. But I'm more inclined to believe that given the tenuous work relationship
Mantlo had with shooter along with shooter's over all reputation for
being something of an asshole. Why Ellison was not given a foot note in this issue or other wise contacted before it was written I can't say for sure. But still I like how Mantlo took the very basic aspect of this Outer Limits episode and weaved into the fabric of the Marvel universe which included Marvel characters like Kang that had nothing to do with the episode. In a perfect world we would get to hear Mantlo's side of the story but of course that's not possible. Opinions anybody?
I don't care if you don't like rap or hip hop. If you don't find yourself moving to this awesome Marvel Comics rap song then you might be dead with out knowing it yet. The whole thing is great from start to finish but the line
" . . . readership is ready for Rom to return . . " at exactly 1:30 totally rocks! I dunno who these guys are that made this video but clearly this is just more proof of an enduring fan base for the greatest of the spaceknights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egQ3k3Kltns
Soooo sleepy... 5AM... What's happening?
ReplyDeleteOh, hi ROM.
I'll come back laterrrzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz~
*sleepcommenting*
It wasn't unusual for comics and television shows to take works of science fiction and adapt them and readapt them. It still isn't. Now they just do out and out remakes. The Omega Man was an adaptation of I Am Legend, which had been made before as The Last Man on Earth, and recently redone as I Am Legend. There's a long list of stuff like this. Where the ball got dropped is in the credits page, not in Mantlo actually doing the adaptation. And it sounds as if it was resolved, so I'm not seeing where Shooter has the problem. It sounds as if he's being unprofessional. You shouldn't throw your writers under the bus, especially if everything has been taken care of. It's a dick move.
ReplyDeleteYou did a great job on your ROM in that panel. I especially love the glare coming off the neutralizer.
And that A-Z was running through my head all day, so thanks for that. Totally not being sarcastic. :)
it seems shooter's reputation as an asshole is well earned. the thing is about the story line in that HULK issue and in Ellison's Soldier is that in each story line a brain washed soldier from an apocalyptic future is sent to the past through scientific quark. But that's pretty much where the similarities end. everything that happens after that is pretty different, did you know there was even some controversy between Ellison and James Cameron over Terminator? no joke check out the youtube video under the title Terminator Origins: Harlan Ellison
DeleteThat's James Cameron being an idiot. Like Harlan said, he could have had it for free, just ask. Ellison has been all over the tv landscape for most of his career (as late as Babylon 5). I really think he just wants people to respect the work, and keep creative juices flowing honestly.
Deletei remember seeing his name at the opening credits of each episode. that show got off to a rough start but the writing improved quite a bit when the Shadow Wars story line picked up.
DeleteThe awesome thing about that show is the story arc was planned from the beginning. All five years. So the continuity flow is amazing. And the first season was rocky, but they recently revealed that the actor playing the main role that season was suffering from schizophrenia, so that kind of explains some of the off tempo acting. He had to leave at the end of the first season. I guess playing a guy who was hearing voices was triggering the actual voices in his head.
DeleteIn other news- Harlan Ellison is gonna be on an upcoming Simpsons episode, about Comic Book Guy, that will feature Stan Lee... So, good timing with this!
ReplyDeleteThat comic rap was wicked tight.
Dude- you could probably draw ROM with your eyes closed at this point, right? I used to draw Spidey so much back in the day- I could even do it with my left hand.
Random is right- they're STILL doing it today with the adaptions in comics- Marvel did that book that was basically Battle Royale with comic characters... and then DC did that one that ripped off Hunger Games...... which in itself was a ripoff of Battle Royale.
This was definitely an example of a tribute in the Hulk story... and did it even really need to be cited? I mean- you either get the nod or you don't right? If people cited every single source of every single thing that gave them an idea or inspiration shit would get ridiculous. Both Marvel and DC recently had characters in Tron outfits... We got the reference- they did not need to note in the comic "These costumes were inspired by the movie Tron" for an homage.
Speaking of homage- I'm about to watch Pacific Rim! I've heard good and bad things, so we'll see. I love the Godzilla and Gamera and Ultraman films so I'm excited to see what we did with this.
i think you'll like Pacific Rim from an entertainment stand point. for me it was a mixed bag but i'm still glad i saw it in theaters although i'm also glad i saw it at an early bird matinee price. but in my opinion that movie's quality would have increased considerably had they re-written a few characters that were way too ridiculous. anyways, let us know what you thought of it maybe in like an upcoming video of yours?
DeleteYeah- it was a good one-time-watch... I never need to see it again. I did not like or hate it enough to make a video about it, though. It was okay. -Had really cool moments, and some really terrible things about it. You wanted to know what I thought so- ready for a bit of reading?
DeleteCool: Robot Jox references, when that kaiju sprouted Rodan wings and that Toho-sounding music kicked in. The awesome, straight out of an 80's movie, characters you never see in flicks anymore. Little things- like how they recycled the fallen monsters, and were excavating inside the carcass... and it turned out to be pregnant... I liked those touches.
I especially smiled at that Voltron reference: When the alien's genetically engineered monster weapon (Robeasts) flew the human piloted giant robot (Voltron) into outer-space and he deployed the sword (FORM BLAZING SWORD!) to kill it. Awesomeness. Movie was definitely 1/2 Tokusatsu/Kaiju movie inspired and 1/2 Giant Robot Anime inspired. -But with an America twist, and I liked it for that.
Now... the bad: What I did not like was the how all the fights between the two took place at night, in a storm, in or under the water, with water splashing and falling everywhere- you could barely ever see shit! The monsters, with the exception of Knife-Head and that crab-looking-one from the flashback, all looked fucking stupid. I absolutely HATED all the internal lighting, neon glowing, piping shit the kaiju had on them. I know they're not real, CGI created, images- but that shit made them look so much more fake (the one monster practically had headlights on top of his head) and non-organic.
It took all the impact and "reality" out of the battles with the all the glowing blue blood and insides. The perfect example of this would be to compare the scene where the Jaeger rips out the kaiju's tongue with the scene from Peter Jackson's King Kong where he split the T-Rex's jaw open. All the weight and impact of what happened in the former was lost because it was just a glowing blue blob. In the latter I just saw a giant ape rip a lizards head open and it was gross and awesome and bad-ass! In the former I just saw some stupid video-game looking shit that should have made me feel something, but didn't. And unfortunately that's what the movie boils down to... I expected more from Guillermo del Toro, but I think a lot of the current Hollywood trend Transformers/Battleship/RealSteel type look to it was more producer mandate than his doing, so... meh.
I loved Pacific Rim. I can agree about the lighting, but like you said, I say that about a lot of films these day. Other than that it was everything I always wanted in a Kaiju film. Unless they ever actually do make a live action Neon Genesis. And then my butt will be the first one in the seat.
DeleteI actually kind of liked some of the hokey people. It was a nod to Japanese Anime, and I don't think the story would have felt right without it. There's always a nutbag in those with weird clothes and pimped out shoes. So that fit right in for me.
Hahaha- "Where's my goddamn shoe!"
DeleteEverything I always wanted in a Kaiju film was Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack or Godzilla: Final Wars.
......or Mega Monster Battle: Ultra Galaxy, or Goemul, or Cloverfield.
I would be okay with that too. I want another Cloverfield movie.
DeleteOHMYGODS! Me too!!!
DeleteThey were rumored to be making it a trilogy with the other two movie taking place at the exact same time as the first one- but following different characters and finding out different things about what's going on and seeing it from different angles and all that. -I'm all for that idea. Like- each movie being a piece of the larger puzzle.
YES!!!! I'd heard that too. Whatever happened to that idea? I'm still waiting!
DeleteProbably too smart of an idea- so it got passed on back then... I remember before Super 8 was gonna come out- people were talking about how it might be a Cloverfield prequel. Recently Abrams said something about how Pacific Rim and Godzilla 2014 could spark interest in the sequel again. Drew Goddard has said he's ready and waiting to get it started so... one can hope.
DeleteYes there was talk of super 8 as the prequel to cloverfield . All from the first trailer.i was like hell yea cloverfield but it didnt turn out to be so.A great true homge to Speilberg indeed.it hinted cloverfield in its creature too. Cloverfield on the big screen was the best. I hope they get it out
DeleteHere's hoping. Cloverfield is old enough now it's hit another generation already.
Deletei never saw Super 8 but i heard it was just alright. but i did see Cloverfeild at least a couple of times one of which was in theaters. over all i liked it too. i even enjoyed the drama between the main character and his ex who showed up at that party with her new guy at the beginning of the movie before the creature showed up. that all gave the movie more of a sense of realism for me.
DeleteYeah- Super 8 was just... meh. I did not like it that much... It's worth a one time watch- there are some cool moments. You have to REALLY like Spielberg films though- because it's the Spielberg-iest.
DeleteOh, damn- Random... it IS a whole new generation! Ugh, makes me throw-up in my mouth just thinking about that.
I don't know. I kinda see Shooter's point, especially if Harlan wasn't credited. That's publishing 101. Always cite/credit your source.
ReplyDeleteNow about shooter, I kow there's plenty of opinions both good and bad, hell for awhile I followed his blog, reading stories about various misadventures and shit, and I loved it. I don't he's as bad people make him out to be, especially considering none of us was there back then. Still this whole isn't like Mantlo lost his job over this. We all know he kept working for Marvel until the the early 90's. On a sorta related note, Len Wein(who edited Alan Moore on Watchmen) still feels like he coped out by stealing/borrowing the ending to one of those Outer Limits episodes. Still!
well there's no doubt Ellison should have been accredited that's for sure we just don't know if it not having happened was intentional or some sort of editorial over site as the article suggests. like i said, it sure would be nice to get Mantlo's point of view on this.
DeleteIs Shooter still bringing it up even though Mantlo can't reply?
DeleteYes. And that makes him look like utter shit to me.
DeleteI was just reading an older 90's book the other night and it had one of those little "bullpen" interviews, they used to do, with him and he sounded like SUCH a self-important douche-nozzle in it.
DeleteWho cares if someone can reply or not?
DeleteDo we worry about making Hitler look bad?
(No, I'm not comparing him to Hitler, I'm saying just because your dead or incapacitated doesn't make you a saint).
I only knew Shooter by name alone before reading his blog. He has plenty of records to back up what he says. He also has many writers/artists etc comment on his statements.
Homage is just another word for ripoff.
There's probably more to this that we may never know. I'm willing to bet the problem was Shooter. Did you know Ellison worked for a very short time wriing HULK comics years before? He left abruptly. He touched upon it once before. His explanation didn't really say much. Maybe there was still bad blood between him and Marvel.
DeleteDetails of Shooter's problem-making can be found on John Byrne's site John Byrne Robotics in the FAQ, (sorry, don't have the link-read it long ago), but Byrne has posted a notice that nothing on his site may be copied and re-printed. It's an interesting read. Byrne also complained about Shooter in the Modern Masters John Byrne periodical.
BTW, the quote from that comic book video, ". . readership is ready for Rom to return . . " would be great as a slogan near the top of the page on the blog.
That comic book rap is great!!
ReplyDeleteGreat repanel ROM looks great!
I didnt take the hulk issue as ripping off that outter limits ep at all . Very intresting post about this.
KoT- hope you liked it .
Pacfic Rim was more a homage to transformers,battleship and Real Steel then godzilla,gamera,and ultraman. I thought cloverfeild was a better homage to the big g.
Balls to the wall for Godzilla 2014 cant wait.
I have read shooters comments but never read the issue nor have I seen the episode. However I take issue with the "rip off" accusations. C'mon....Bill was an idea FACTORY....did he really NEED to rip anyone off? More like an homage. Also did you see Shooters comments that he ripped off Barry Windsor Smith in Incredible Hulk 312? I don't buy it.
ReplyDeleteJoseph, thanks for the kind words on my repanel
DeleteRT, yeah i also read that stuff on shooter's blog about Windsor Smith. in regards to that we only have shooter's word for it so that's neither here or there unless we were to here from Barry about it.
K.o.T, i figured you'd have like PR a bit more then that but i wasn't too far off the mark.
The rap was a lot of fun and I agree with the sentiment that fans are ready for a return. King of Thessaly, I agree that Godzilla Final Wars is among the best G films. Maybe you can make it out to G-Fest in Chicago next July! I don't find much credence in accusations by Shooter. Every idea has been done in numerous ways, so it's impossible to credit every point of inspiration in all cases. Bill's Soldier story had a strong emotional component and was presented in a very down-to-earth manner, which is what made it work, not the Harlan elements. Keep up the Rom art, David!
ReplyDeletewell said Rick in regards to the Soldier controversy and thanks for the art praise. by the way K.o.T isn't that far from you hes' in Ohio i believe. thanks for coming by.
DeleteHell yeah Final Wars!!! I don't know why, but a LOT of G-Fans HATE that movie- I thought it was SO much fun!!! But then I've always unironically liked Godzilla vs. Megalon.
DeleteGreat panel art! Nicely done.
ReplyDeletere Pacific ROM erm, I mean Rim, I haven't seen it yet but now I'm looking forward to it after hearing about the nods to other works.
re Shooter - this isn't the first time I've read about him bashing Mantlo's work. I agree with what others have said... the guy can't counter points you're raising and why are you raising them so many years after the fact?
re Ellison - from Star Trek to B5, I've grown up with his stories and have nothing but respect for his work.
The A-Z - wow, now that fan just jacked his geek cred by an order of magnitude. Kudos! (and yes, love the ROM reference!)
thanks for your feed back on all that Mark. Pacific Rim was one of those movies to me that had a lot going for it and was good enough to avoid being utter rubbish. but at the same time there were some key things about it an all around good ci-fi monster movie like like Cloverfield was for me. let me know what you thought of it after you see it.
DeleteMan this is superior posting. The movie reference, comics parallels, original art and a you tube video.
ReplyDeleteThe ROM blog does it big.
thanks Tiger, glad you enjoyed the stuff i had here. i do my best to make this blog have some broad appeal.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI had a little fight about this in Shooter's blog. There, Mr Shooter admited he had never seen that episode of Outer Limits. He also said that he wanted to fire Bill, but someone over him didn't let him. And somehow he recognized that he did not talk about that with Bill.
ReplyDeleteSo: Jim Shooter wanted to fire Bill for plagiarism without even seeing the episode that was supposed to have been ripped-off, or talk to Bill.
And at this point we could remember Bill's words about Shooter before the accident:
"(Shooter) had been trying to destroy me as a writer ever since he became an editor... He would attack me either directly, or through the editors, by making it miserable for the editors who had to edit my stuff. Some of the editors did not want to work with me because Shooter would be so hard on them"
(...)
"Shooter breached my contract at Marvel by refusing to give me the amount of work they were contractually obligated to give me. I took Marvel to arbitration over this. Shooter bitterly opposed any settlement with me... In the course of our negotiations, it became apparent that Jim Shooter was irrational, and I think this was the first time for management to see this. They basically kept it in mind when his contract came up"
Now, you can draw your own conclusions.
Omoloc has been fighting the good fight regarding this matter for years. I also do not believe what Mantlo did was plagiarism in this particular case. The "left off credit" theory was actually confirmed BY JIM SHOOTER HIMSELF in a contemporary story on the matter in The Comics Journal (“Mantlo Ellison Adaptation Raises Questions,” TCJ, 83, August 1982, p 10, Kim Thompson). Somehow, Jim must have forgotten that.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Bill Mantlo's supposed plagiarism of Barry Windsor Smith in Incredible Hulk 312, that also seems very suspect for two reasons: 1.) the length of time involved between the supposed event: 1984 when it supposedly took place and 2003 when Barry Smith started claiming it took place. Most importantly, 2.) as detailed in his self-described "autobiographical" story "Time Rise," Smith claims to have experienced lengthy bouts of paranormal phenomenon. To me, this indicates that Smith is someone who should be considered to be -at best-- a poor witness for outlandish charges made twenty years after the fact.